Comments for I can't live with or without you http://wowy.wordpress.com A believer questions the existence of God Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:59:54 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on postscript to “schizophrenic?” by Big Dan http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/postscript-to-schizophrenic/#comment-291 Big Dan Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:59:54 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=435#comment-291 Something we talked about a while back... can't find your original post, so will comment it here! http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/801/ Something we talked about a while back… can’t find your original post, so will comment it here!

http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/801/

]]> Comment on postscript to “schizophrenic?” by Big Dan http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/postscript-to-schizophrenic/#comment-290 Big Dan Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:00:17 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=435#comment-290 Bob, I think a result of option (1) above is that one doesn't necessarily believe that Jesus was who he said he was (or who others said he said he was). So one doesn't necessarily believe that one will actually meet Jesus sitting on his throne. Believing in that meeting is part of the faith package. You said "He’s placed the terms and conditions of righteousness: believe in your heart... It makes it a lot easier." I agree! But I feel I'm in a similar place to the writer of this blog. Our heads seem to rule our hearts, and our heads have reservations about what we're being asked to believe. This does make it a lot harder, but the path of faith seems closed to me at the moment, so I have to tread the even harder path. Incidentally, if you feel like a chat, the two things I have problems with in your comment are: 1. "we know we’re flawed and we don’t meet God’s standards" - I agree 100%. But isn't that the way God designed us? I know the story of the Fall, but why design something that's so easy to break? 2. "Our penalty is on Him." Why does there have to be a penalty? That says to me that there is some higher power of justice that God must obey, higher than God himself. Otherwise he could just waive the penalty. If your answer to (1) is that we are designed to break so that we can be remade and experience a full relationship with God, then again why should there be a penalty, if it's all part of the plan? Best wishes, Dan. Bob, I think a result of option (1) above is that one doesn’t necessarily believe that Jesus was who he said he was (or who others said he said he was). So one doesn’t necessarily believe that one will actually meet Jesus sitting on his throne. Believing in that meeting is part of the faith package.

You said “He’s placed the terms and conditions of righteousness: believe in your heart… It makes it a lot easier.”

I agree! But I feel I’m in a similar place to the writer of this blog. Our heads seem to rule our hearts, and our heads have reservations about what we’re being asked to believe. This does make it a lot harder, but the path of faith seems closed to me at the moment, so I have to tread the even harder path.

Incidentally, if you feel like a chat, the two things I have problems with in your comment are:

1. “we know we’re flawed and we don’t meet God’s standards” – I agree 100%. But isn’t that the way God designed us? I know the story of the Fall, but why design something that’s so easy to break?

2. “Our penalty is on Him.” Why does there have to be a penalty? That says to me that there is some higher power of justice that God must obey, higher than God himself. Otherwise he could just waive the penalty. If your answer to (1) is that we are designed to break so that we can be remade and experience a full relationship with God, then again why should there be a penalty, if it’s all part of the plan?

Best wishes,
Dan.

]]> Comment on postscript to “schizophrenic?” by bob http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/postscript-to-schizophrenic/#comment-289 bob Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:43:39 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=435#comment-289 Answer: It depends on whose terms you're willing to follow. If it's yours, there's a decent chance down the road you'll let your self down. I mean let's be honest, all of us disappoint ourselves every now and then. But let's say you do live it to the fullest of your abilities, you've reached your goal. Now what? You made it all on your own there's the pat on the back. You made it on your terms. But honestly, when you meet Jesus sitting on his throne, can we really say, "Look, I made it on my own, with my own terms." We might as well be saying, "You really didn't need to come down here and die for my sins, because I took care of my own problems." reality is, we know we're flawed and we don't meet God's standards, so that why He came down and died for our sins. Our penalty is on Him. He took it because He wanted to. So now He's placed the terms and conditions of righteousness: believe in your heart. If we believe in Him, now we've met His terms. Jesus said No one can come to the Father except through me. It makes it a lot easier. I'm sure you weren't expecting all of this! have a great day! Answer:
It depends on whose terms you’re willing to follow. If it’s yours, there’s a decent chance down the road you’ll let your self down. I mean let’s be honest, all of us disappoint ourselves every now and then. But let’s say you do live it to the fullest of your abilities, you’ve reached your goal. Now what? You made it all on your own there’s the pat on the back. You made it on your terms.
But honestly, when you meet Jesus sitting on his throne, can we really say, “Look, I made it on my own, with my own terms.”
We might as well be saying, “You really didn’t need to come down here and die for my sins, because I took care of my own problems.” reality is, we know we’re flawed and we don’t meet God’s standards, so that why He came down and died for our sins. Our penalty is on Him. He took it because He wanted to. So now He’s placed the terms and conditions of righteousness: believe in your heart. If we believe in Him, now we’ve met His terms. Jesus said No one can come to the Father except through me.
It makes it a lot easier.
I’m sure you weren’t expecting all of this!
have a great day!

]]> Comment on division of labour by Big Dan http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/division-of-labour/#comment-288 Big Dan Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:14:18 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=429#comment-288 Don’t worry about not posting – thanks to the miracle of RSS, we don’t have to hang around waiting for you. Good to hear from you though. Maybe I didn’t come across well, but I think I’m closer to 3 than 2, as well. Interesting that you said “The idea that God is not an “it” but a “person” is for me one of the most important, special, fascinating, attractive, deep features of the traditional christian picture of God” because, to me, that’s something that we should give up. OK, Genesis says that we are made in his image, but frankly how much weight do you give to that particular wisdom fable? I think we should give it up, because it leads us shrinking God to fit our requirements. I’ve heard a lot recently that people think God deliberately shrinks himself (limits his powers) so that we can relate to him. That all sounds a bit dubious to me. I struggle to accept God as a person, who communicates, makes decisions and takes actions, because I see no evidence of that in the world. The only God that I can posit, that I might want to worship, is some kind of essence of compassion, humility, and peace. A metaphorical God, really. Of course the thing I haven’t mentioned is the incarnation – God made man, really shrunk down and limited to human terms. Well, I don’t know about that. But I think that we can see aspects of my metaphorical God in people, especially Jesus, whether he was who he (allegedly) said he was, or not. Don’t worry about not posting – thanks to the miracle of RSS, we don’t have to hang around waiting for you. Good to hear from you though.

Maybe I didn’t come across well, but I think I’m closer to 3 than 2, as well. Interesting that you said “The idea that God is not an “it” but a “person” is for me one of the most important, special, fascinating, attractive, deep features of the traditional christian picture of God” because, to me, that’s something that we should give up. OK, Genesis says that we are made in his image, but frankly how much weight do you give to that particular wisdom fable?

I think we should give it up, because it leads us shrinking God to fit our requirements. I’ve heard a lot recently that people think God deliberately shrinks himself (limits his powers) so that we can relate to him. That all sounds a bit dubious to me.

I struggle to accept God as a person, who communicates, makes decisions and takes actions, because I see no evidence of that in the world. The only God that I can posit, that I might want to worship, is some kind of essence of compassion, humility, and peace. A metaphorical God, really.

Of course the thing I haven’t mentioned is the incarnation – God made man, really shrunk down and limited to human terms. Well, I don’t know about that. But I think that we can see aspects of my metaphorical God in people, especially Jesus, whether he was who he (allegedly) said he was, or not.

]]> Comment on schizophrenic? by atimetorend http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/schizophrenic/#comment-287 atimetorend Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:58:13 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-287 Wow, that is exactly how I feel too, everything you wrote in your last comment. I think the double-life for me grew by degree. At one point there was no disconnect between what I thought and what I could say, probably because there was not such a gap between my beliefs and those around me. As my beliefs shifted from the mainstream of those around me, the gap grew until at some point it was undeniable and too much to live with. Wow, that is exactly how I feel too, everything you wrote in your last comment. I think the double-life for me grew by degree. At one point there was no disconnect between what I thought and what I could say, probably because there was not such a gap between my beliefs and those around me. As my beliefs shifted from the mainstream of those around me, the gap grew until at some point it was undeniable and too much to live with.

]]> Comment on schizophrenic? by wowy http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/schizophrenic/#comment-286 wowy Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:28:38 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-286 Thanks, ATTR, for your comment. I find myself very much in your description in the 2nd sentence: I am someone who does NOT let others think for himself and who has very much his own views. AT THE SAME TIME, I do not mention my disagreements very often and I do not talk much about views I do not share. For some time, this worked great: In public, I was able to join in with the big mainstream while "in private" I somehow didn't buy into it. Since it worked so well, I assumed this "double-life" was OK and even stopped perceiving it as a "double-life". Now I realize that I let too much of a gap open up between my private views and my public commitments. I don't claim that I was dishonest (in terms of playing something outwards which wasn't true inwards). No. I just considered it as the tensions that I had to live with... But now I realize that it's more difficult to live with these tensions than it seemed at first. Thanks, ATTR, for your comment. I find myself very much in your description in the 2nd sentence: I am someone who does NOT let others think for himself and who has very much his own views. AT THE SAME TIME, I do not mention my disagreements very often and I do not talk much about views I do not share.

For some time, this worked great: In public, I was able to join in with the big mainstream while “in private” I somehow didn’t buy into it.
Since it worked so well, I assumed this “double-life” was OK and even stopped perceiving it as a “double-life”.

Now I realize that I let too much of a gap open up between my private views and my public commitments.

I don’t claim that I was dishonest (in terms of playing something outwards which wasn’t true inwards). No. I just considered it as the tensions that I had to live with…
But now I realize that it’s more difficult to live with these tensions than it seemed at first.

]]> Comment on schizophrenic? by atimetorend http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/schizophrenic/#comment-285 atimetorend Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:29:17 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-285 For me working through the questions of religion were a lot about becoming myself and not letting other people think for me. Or sometimes I didn't let other people think for me, but I didn't voice my disagreements openly, walked the walk even if I didn't buy into in completely. I wonder if what you describe as unification and becoming a whole person is similar, finding your own voice and learning things your own way as you go through life. For me working through the questions of religion were a lot about becoming myself and not letting other people think for me. Or sometimes I didn’t let other people think for me, but I didn’t voice my disagreements openly, walked the walk even if I didn’t buy into in completely. I wonder if what you describe as unification and becoming a whole person is similar, finding your own voice and learning things your own way as you go through life.

]]> Comment on schizophrenic? by Sabio Lantz http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/schizophrenic/#comment-284 Sabio Lantz Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:42:49 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-284 Nothing a good exorcism couldn't cure. Kidding aside, I like the advice. Exploration can bring wholeness. Enjoy the voyage ! Nothing a good exorcism couldn’t cure.
Kidding aside, I like the advice. Exploration can bring wholeness. Enjoy the voyage !

]]> Comment on postscript to “schizophrenic?” by wowy http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/postscript-to-schizophrenic/#comment-283 wowy Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:45:24 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=435#comment-283 I had even totally forgotten that the term "schizophrenic" occurred to me before... I had even totally forgotten that the term “schizophrenic” occurred to me before…

]]> Comment on changing the perspective on atheism by wowy http://wowy.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/changing-the-perspective-on-atheism/#comment-282 wowy Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:28:19 +0000 http://wowy.wordpress.com/?p=420#comment-282 @BigDan: Yes! I think if God is credited for the good ways of some churchy people but not blamed for the bad ways of some churchy people, then - - YES - - I would definitely credit God for the good ways of non-churchy people. A friend of mine does research on Christianity and other religions. And he once showed me how many people there are in the Bible who are neither Jews nor Christian but who still are portrayed as being in contact with God. And I couldn't agree more with you w.r.t. to the Holy Spirit. That bothers me so badly, too. @BigDan:

Yes! I think if God is credited for the good ways of some churchy people but not blamed for the bad ways of some churchy people, then – - YES – - I would definitely credit God for the good ways of non-churchy people.
A friend of mine does research on Christianity and other religions. And he once showed me how many people there are in the Bible who are neither Jews nor Christian but who still are portrayed as being in contact with God.

And I couldn’t agree more with you w.r.t. to the Holy Spirit. That bothers me so badly, too.

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